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Triumph TR6 - Difference of stock vs. modified in show judging?
|As some of you know, I am doing a frame up restoration of a 1969 TR6. I hope that by the time I am done the car will look good. My intention is to drive it mostly on weekends and perhaps short trips that will include car shows where I hope to enter into the judging. Being new to actually showing a car, I am unsure of when a car no longer is "original" but actually modified. I am at a point where I can decide to keep it all original or modify it and am curious as to the guidelines. An example is the higher performance muffler systems vs. the stock units or even a steel vs stainless steel muffler. Are there any opinions on which way to go? I appreciate any comments.|
Thanks and Regards
|Mike - Do what you think you want as original. And do what you want to have that may not be original. Do what you would like to have on your car.|
Enter it in the "stock or original" class. If the judges don't like this or that because it's not original, you will lose points. So you may lose 7 points for non-original things. But that 93 points could be enough to win 1st prize in your class if the other entrants have poor paintwork, sagging doors, etc.
I got 383.5 points out of 400 last July at the US VTR National Concours in Minnesota in my class with 12 summers of driving more than 70,000 miles during those weekend tours, etc. I lose points because I have stainless steel bolts, etc. that show. My exhaust is stainless. But I like my car that way, so I know I'll lose points. BTW, I came second in my class next to a very nice TR with only 10,000 since it's restoration. And Oh yes, I took 5th in my class in the Autocross too. Finally I was considered by the judges among the 5 best for the "Best of Show" Trophy. The one with 386,5 points that beat me was selected "Best of Show".
Most whose cars are modified go into the modified class because they are really different. Too much chrome, 3 webers, and lots of other visible speed equipment.
Don Elliott, Original Owner, 1958 TR3A
|Lemme add my $0.02 worth - |
Many of the modifications Mike has mentioned, while not exactly stock, will be of great value (especially the stainless steel exhaust system) if he is going to actually use the car. If it is a garaged trailer queen, go with the 100% original (reproduction) parts - but expect to replace them, just like the originals, if you actually drive the car.
I think Don hit the nail on the head - make those modifications that you want to "personalize" your car.
On ths stock/modified issue - I have a fair amount of experience with this - only with Harley-Davidsons.
I own a very rare '77 Harley-Davidson Cafe Racer (called the XLCR-1000). This bike, which I purchased new, has only 1,715 miles on it. It IS all original, down to the hard, cracking, Goodyear Eagle tires. When I go to a show, they don't even have a category for the bike, so I usually get stuck in one of three classes:
1) regular Sportsters,
2) the antiques (i.e. Knuckle heads), or
3) the Buell sportbikes.
What these guys show for "Stock" is unbelievable. In their book, if it doesn't look like a full-blown custom, it must be stock. I guess they define stock as being able to bolt on chrome and billet aluminum to stock mounting holes without having to customize the frame.
|As Bob says, a lot depends on the judging and the judges. It is all very subjective and depends on many things and people.|
When I attended the TR Register International Weekend in Shepson Mallett, near Bath, England in July, 1998, there were about 1000 TR's (or so it seemed). You could enter your car in the concours as "stock" or in the "modified" class.
In the TR2 concours judging with two entries, The TR2 where the owner had installed an obvious non-original rack and pinion steering was in the "stock" class. A beautiful red TR2 from Belgium had entered his in the "modified" class because he was honest, he had put in a TR3A rear axle because his original TR2 rear axle (which was a much weaker design) had broken a few weeks before the show. Now you go figure that one out !
Do what you like. When you go to a VTR type of National Concours, you can get a listing of where they docked you points for being non-original. Then you can decide if you want to correct it, or leave it because you like it that way. But don't change it just because a judge says it's wrong. He may be the one who is wrong. Often TR owners (of say a TR3A) will judge the TR6's because he volunteered and the head judge assigned hiim there. He can't know as much as you about your TR6 and what is truly original.
Don Elliott, 1958 TR3A
|Thanks Don and Bob for some insight. I did plan on getting what I wanted but wanted to be able to anticipate what impact that might have on showing the car. You mention "points". It sounds like the judges start with a set number of points and deduct points for flaws and modified items. Is this correct? Can someone offer a description of a typical inspection during judging and what items get more attention or have higher waiting? For example Don mentions sagging doors, paint work and stainless steel bolts that show.|
|Mike the Obsessed TR6 rebuilder|
|Mike - Don't get obsessed with trying to pre-calculate your score before the event. Enjoy your TR6 and drive it too. For example in Ohio in 1992 with 900 miles since my restoration, the judges docked me points because my wind screen squirter button was not in the "right place". I said "But it's always been there". "Yah Yah, that's what you say. I bet the guy put it there" was his answer. I asked "How do you know where it goes and what guy ?". He said, "We have the blueprints directly fron the Triumph factory in England and it should go over there", pointing to the dash near the glove box way ove ron the right side. I asked where the steering wheel was in those drawing of a British car designed in Coventry, and he said, "It is a sectional drawing and no steering wheel was shown. It's wrong. The guy you bought the car from must have put it there". I replied that I bought it brand new in 1958 and the dealer installed it there when I ordered it as a dealer installed option.|
Still lost the points anyway.
That's what judging can be like.
At VTR you start with 400 points. See the 2nd note above as to what my TR3A did last summer.
Don Elliott, 1958 TR3A
|Go to the VTR website, check under competitions, then concours. You will find class breakdowns, judging guidelines and "the form." Plus all the other VTR stuff.|
|Thanks for the info and link. I found the VTR competition rules to be most informative.|
|Mike Obsessed TR6 Rebuilder|
This thread was discussed between 23/02/2003 and 26/02/2003
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