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Triumph TR6 - Slow Start

OK Wizards of Triumph, need your diagnosis on an intermittent slow crankover of my TR engine. This morning, the engine cranked very slowly but finally fired up. It was as if there wasn't enough juice getting to the starter. After 15 seconds or so of running, I shut it off and restarted with no problems. The battery is fine and the starter was rebuilt 2 years ago. Could this be a symptom of a worn ignition switch?

Thanks.

Rick O.
Rick Orthen

More likely a loose or corroded connection at the battery terminals or starter & ground ends. I'd pull and clean the battery connections, check that the cable is not corroded at the connection to the + terminal, then disconnect & clean the ground & starter connections.

Brent
Brent B

The recent cooler weather may be causing your motor oil to thicken, thus making starting a little harder.
johnston21

... or it could be the right pfitzer valve.
D Hasara

Oh yeah - the pfitzer valve. That's behind the rhenobulator, isn't it?
Brent B

Rick O
Can not say I have heard of a worn ignition switch let alone a pfitzer valve...any way, I agree with johnston21.... and add a cold battery to that and yup she would turn over a little slower.
Keeping in mind your word, intermittent, then let me also consider what Brent has said. Maybe one of the connections on the back of the ignition switch is flakey but consider the following, first. When your 2 year old starter askes for juice and I mean a lot of juice (current) this is a heavy drain on the system and a big demand on electrical connections. Like Brent said, the heavy current line is + Bat. to Starter. The 2 other heavy current draw lines are the -Bat. to ground and the ground of the starter motor itself. This is an over looked one. The starter is obviously grounded through the mounting bolts....clean with DG applied???
Let us know what you find out Rick.

Rick C
Rick Crawford

ignition switch contacts will affect pre 74. After that there is less current flowing through switch contacts for solenoid activation due to relay used.

Can't remember yours. Most likley primary connections, but solenoid contacts and current to hold solenoid in can be affected by the switch and or relay contacts depending on year and seatbelt switch only on 74 models.

The Pfitser and rhenobulator of course were special options only purchased by drivers like JimD going to work at 4 AM. They warm ar*e and keep eyelids open have nothing to do with car starting. Not a concern.
Bill Brayford

Thanks for the many suggestions folks. My 'Pfitser and rhenobulator' appear to be in fine working order, although a bit tired looking. There is no problem with the solenoid pulling in, so I doubt it is the ignition switch. It is now my understanding that once the solenoid is pulled in, it automatically closes a set of contacts in the rear of the solenoid, sending the major juice to the starter motor. Since I don't know how old the DieHard is, I'm going to see if jumping from my boring car makes a difference. If so, it's time for a new battery.

I checked all the connections I could get my hands on and they are tight with no evidence of corrosion.

Thank you all!

Rick O.
(shivering in a frosty western PA)
Rick Orthen

Ahem.
In FACT, I didn't purchase the Pfitser as I opted for the new, more improved version from the Framastat Corporation.
Not only does it keep my AR_E warm, it mixes cocktails on the way home.
I wouldn't expect one of my Northern Neighbors to know of the newer version though as they tend to run a tad behind the rest of the world.

(ducking and running out to the garage).

Now, that having been said. If it were me, I would check the cable that grounds the engine to the chassis along with the other large cabling.

Remember, a good mechanical connection is not necessarily a good electrical connection.

When in doubt, solder.

Jim
Jim Deatsch

Rick O
Consider that the purpose of the relay is to excite the solenoid. The starter draws directly from the Bat. when turning over.
The Solenoid has basically 2 purposes.
1. When voltage from relay (R/W wire)is applied to the solenoid (approx. .5 amps) BOTH the "pull in" and "hold in" windings of the solenoid are excited. This pulls (pushes)in the starter pinion gear.
2.At this moment of pull in, voltage is shorted out to the pull in winding and just the hold in is left. The hold in does just that...hold in with a current draw of approx .2 amp. A contact at the end of the plunger of the solenoid winding makes a contact to the main terminal of the starter motor brushes and bingo the engine is turning over. This contact is the black wire from BAT.+
The starter motor when under load is drawing around 300 amps .....a tad more than the solenoid.
As a little side note here, the terminal marked IGN is for the Ballast resistor wire.
OK enough of the tech stuff.
Next time you go to start her and if she is a little slow..stop and get yourself a boost from your boring car. If she turns over at what you would expect then your DieHard is a DeadHard. Yup, time for a new bunny:)
Rick C
Rick Crawford

Thanks for the technical details Rick C. What's strange about my situation is that once it starts and I run it for a few seconds then shutdown, it starts again with the expected cranking speed. Go figure.

Rick O.
Rick Orthen

Rick-

I thought the terminal marked IGN was for the ballast resistor by-pass which is energized just when the starter is operating. Worked out that little issue when installing a gear reduction starter.

Brent
Brent B

Hey Rick O,

Next time you go to start it cold, take your jumper cables and ground the engine to the frame, just for yuks.

See if that makes a difference.

J
Jim Deatsch

Rick,

I experienced a similar problem in the past. Nice clean looking battery terminals, no corrosion whatsoever. My ground lead was a nice heavy cable with a large casted lead connector at the end.
The problem turned out to be a bad connection within the casted terminal.

The first time you hit the starter the corrosion, build-up over night, within the casting will prevent a good connection. (Feel the terminal, it will heat-up). The second time around the corrosion has been cleaned away by the high current from the first attempt.

I replaced the casted connector for a type with a clamping bold.

Erik
E. Creyghton

Hi to all

All of the above are more likely than the switch. Double check Eriks post.

The reason I pointed out the ignition contacts was from experience. I had a slow and itermitant starting problem about 10 years ago. Redid all contacts switched battery. Had starter rebuilt. Took it apart and double checked the rebuild. Ordered parts for solenoid looked a little smokey on the main contacts. Rebuilt and fine for a while back to same problem. Took it apart and found smokey contacts.

After about 3 months of testing everything I still had the problem. I replaced the ignition switch because I was sick of the stupid placement. New switch hung on dash. No more problems???

I can't give an exact reason for it but when I took the old switch apart the contacts and center pivot point were very worn. I decided that the start contact was flashing sort of like turning the ignition on and off real fast. Main contacts in solenoid were connecting and disconnecting real fast as well.

If you have a service starter switch. There cheap hook it up and try starting with the ignion turned to on. If the problem still exists the ign. and if you have one relay is eliminated.
Bill Brayford

Brent
That is exactly what I meant. I know we have all scratched our heads once in a while questioning ballast/non-ballast/and WHERE is the D@#$ ballast resistor? Electrically, the IGN connection to the starter ( model/type 2M 100 PE) is NOT common to the R/W wire from the ignition switch (through relay for you later guys) and yup it is the by-pass at ign. start.
My main purpose of mentioning it was/is: if you have a wire attached to that terminal on your TR6 then you have a Ballasted system and THAT wire is the Ballast resistor.
(Keep this in mind folks if you plan to upgrade your ignition to Pertronix EI).
Glad you worked it out with HD starter.

Rick O

"Remember, a good mechanical connection is not necessarily a good electrical connection". MAN...how true these words can be. Good one Jim and good point Eric. Then there is DR. Bill with his always excellent advice/info.
Hint Hint Rick O
So we all know what Rick O is doing this weekend:)

When I connected the braided brass ground cable (OE bare cable) to the engine and frame, I sanded the paint off the block and the frame...metal to metal and ofcourse good old DG.

With all the excellent help on THIS BBS, why bother with another. Besides, this one is easier on the eyes for us older folk:)
Rick C
Rick Crawford

Just a minor point to maybe eliminate a possible source of confusion in the future. Only the 74 and 75 models had a starter relay. The function of the "starter" relay was changed on the '76 model, and served only as a "bulb test" relay. The starter is wired directly to the ignition switch on this model.

For this year, the ballast resistor bypass was taken from the "ign" post on the starter solenoid.

If you look at the schematic for the 76, you'll see there are some wires missing from the relay. It looks as if the draftsman started to document the changes and then got pulled off onto another job before he finished. The wires just go off to nowhere and end.

While I'm at it, the 73 model diagrams that are published are WAY off from the real thing.

I have posted a complete set of correct wiring diagrams for all model year TR250 - TR6 at:

http://www.britishv8.org/techhome.htm

Click on the "electrical" button, and then on the wiring diagram link. These diagrams are the result of actually "walking down" the wiring on original, unmodified cars.

There is also a set of TR2-4A diagrams there, but these have not yet been verified. If you find any descrepancies on these, please let me know.
Dan Masters

Hey, Dan. Good to see you lurking. I admire your TR6 work!

Brent
'73 TR6
Brent B

Hi and welcome Dan

Thanks for all I have learned from you since 28kb modems were fast!

For the TR folks unaware. If Dr. Lucas is the prince of darkness. Dan Masters is the prince of light.

When any of us long time owners reply with a fairly accurate diagnoses of your descripted problem. We in most cases are refering to:

Dans schematics: On page go down to electrical

http://www.britishv8.org/techhome.htm

And Dans book: Yes he is an Electrical engineer and no its not hard to understand from friends that have it.

http://members.aol.com/danmas6/

I have most of Dans articles and posts over the years and haven't bought the recent book. After RickCs excellent detailed post on current draws. Unless Cheryl doghoused him to the garage with his Ohmeter and a 6 pack. I think he may have gotten some of that from the book and I had better buy one?

Its on my early Christmas list.


Bill






Bill Brayford

Good morning all. See we have Dan M. on the boards--quite an honor to hear from you Dan! Your dedication to providing the Triumph community with factual electrical information is deeply appreciated.

Thanks for all the suggestions everyone . . . (drum roll) it was simply a tired battery! I hadn't changed the battery since the PO installed it in 1996 (per date code on case)! The Sears reps were suitably impressed that a battery that old would still work 7 years later.

Guess since I hadn't experienced electrical problems prior to this event, I was expecting the worst with my turn in Lucas' barrel o' fun. Sometimes things work out in the simplest terms. Bet my luck has run out now.

Cheers.

Rick O.
Rick Orthen

Dan

WOW it is nice to see that some important folk to the TR word read this BBS. When every anyone talks electrical schematics on this BBS, it is reference to yours. Simply, thank you Dan. Are there any other schematics out there...surely not from Coventry:) I carry a printout of "71 in my traveling tool kit (not for resale:)
Thanks for the info
Best Regards
Rick Crawford
Fully restored'71 TR6

P.S. Bill, actually I got the info on current draw from a Triumph TR6 Manual (not the schematics). Oh ya, the garage is not the doghouse...Cheryl knows I would not mind being sent there:)

Rick O
Glad it turned out to be a simple one...You should still clean the connections though...will not do any harm.
Rick Crawford

This thread was discussed between 02/10/2003 and 06/10/2003

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