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Triumph TR6 - WELDERS

I need a little advice from the guys (or gals) who have welders in their home shops. In my garage I am building I want to add a 220 outlet for a welding outfit. What ampage wire should I use. I don't plan on getting a big machine. (I don't even know how) but maybe in the future or to the next homeowner.
Thanks
Don K.
DON KELLY

Don - I think you are wise to go for a 220 volt MIG welder. I've heard many complain about 110 volt versions. I have a 220 volt MIG welder made by SIP.

I could tell you the amperage that I have for my MIG welder, but I suggest you check with Miller and Hobart on the web. Pick the welder you like from their product lists and the tech details will tell you what amperage you will need. Ask if it comes with a plug so you can buy and install the right socket for the plug that comes with the welder you plan to buy some day.

I understand that both Miller and Hobart are made by the same company in the same factory. One is blue and one is red. One is more expensive. The cheaper one has 8 settings for different thicknesses of sheetmetal up to thicker plate. The more expensive one has a variable setting knob so it's more expensive. Go for the cheaper one. Mine has only 3 settings and works fine.

Go for a model that uses the gas bottle as the shielding gas. I use Argon and CO2 mix. I bought a small bottle for about $100.00 extra and get it refilled when it gets empty for about $40.00 to $50.00. If you rent a bottle, it'll be a huge one and you will have to pay a hefty monthly rental charge too, even if it just sits there not being used for a year.

Don't go for the flux-coated wire MIG welders. I never heard anyone say they liked how it works. The flux coating causes the wire to slip in the feed mechanism and the flux coating flakes or cracks off. I use the gas, so my feed wire has no coating, so it's cheaper than the flux-coated wire. For typical body repair - 18 or 22 gauge sheetmetal the wire I use is 0.023" diameter mild steel wire which is copper coated not to rust. My SIP welder takes either the 2 pound spool ($10.00) or the 10 pound spool ($30.00) for the wire.

Make sure to get a self-darkening welding mask. The one I bought a year ago was $100.00 ($US) at Harbor Freight. This make welding so much easier. Other masks can go for $200.00 ($US) and more.

http://www.harborfreight.com/

For welding tips check out the web-sites for MIG welding.

http://www.millerwelds.com/main/education/technical_articles/?view=all

http://www.hobartwelders.com/techtips.html#mig

Don Elliott, 1958 TR3A, Montreal, Canada
Don Elliott

Don,
Putting 220 in the shop is a most important thing to do and go for about 30 amps for a welder. If you plan on hooking up a decent compressor then go 50 amps for both. I run a true 5 horse compressor which draws 24 amps and I have a Miller 175 which draws about 20 amps. The cool thing about a 220 volt welder is not many people have 220 in the garage so they won't ask to borrow it (and mess it up)! Good luck and happy sparks, Steve

Steve Yott

Both Don and Steve are right on the mark - I have a 30 amp 220 outlet in my garage for the compressor (5 hp).

The biggest difference (I think) between the 110 volt and 220 volt welders is the amount of active welding that can be done before the unit has to cool and they can weld thicker materials, although I did buy the 110 volt wire welder (Lincoln) since at the time I didn't have the new garage and 220 volt.

Regarding flux core, I originally started with this, since I didn't have to purchase the tank and regulator, but it splatters a lot - Since converting to gas I get a much cleaner weld - less splatter to grind off and a much better looking weld.
Also, with pure argon, you can weld aluminum, although that would require a second tank and regulator.

The best welding comes from TIG (Tungsten Inert Gas), but it does cost more - and you also have to be able to walk AND chew gum at the same time, because you are using one hand for the gun, one hand to feed a rod of material, and your foot is on a peddle to control the amount of heat.

Also, as stated before, the automatic lenses are worth their weight in gold - especially for beginners.

Good Luck with your welding - practice on a LOT of scrap metal before welding on something important.
R.C. Blair

Hi Don

The wire best for 220V welder uses is 10-2 black/white/ground copper. Actually a bit overkill but you may be a Tim the Toolman More POWER ARGH Carries 30 amps per wire for a total of 60 amps at 220 volts. Thats more than enough for machines up to the Miller 251 drawing 44A and the like. If your building put in 4 plugs one on each wall.

For an air compressor most found in home shops and service centers are in the 5 to 7.50 HP range and are happy with 12-2. Because the compressor has a high starting load you want it direct wired seperate breakers.

All your 110 wire should be 12-2 for plugs. Chop saws and grinders will draw a lot of current when leaned on. Breakers 20 amp.

For insurance protection always check your local building code. Some have more rules than just amperage carrying ability.

We just installed a 2 post hoist in my son in laws shop and the township he is in required flexible metal conduit straight from the box surface mounted. They look at its much easier to get at if on fire.

I have had a 110V 130A Miller bought new for over 10 years and I push its duty cycle all the time. Never had a problem. Lays down a great weld with CO2 the cheapest shielding gas. Does anything on a car except heavy trailer hitches. You can do that as well with preheating. Best thing is I can load it up on the truck myself and use it pretty near anywhere.

I share a Miller 220V 250 bought used at auction for less than the 130 new. Great for heavy stuff but gun is awkward for gettting in tight spots on car panels. And requires 4 men a boy and truck ramps to move off premises. Great for Hitches, trailers anything heavy. Lots around at auction and will sell cheaper than small ones.

If I were buying new right now I would get the Miller 175 or 210 depending on budjet both just about as perfect as you can get for autobody use to building a car trailer. Both are 220V. Lincoln is equal but parts can be a little slower I've heard. Hobart is now Millers low buck shaved down brand name since bought out good quality but fewer features. Offshore stuff welds poorly and in most cases not worth thinking about.

I have been welding for a long time so for a mask I use a Jackson 4 by 5 lense pro series about $85.00. Old timer and BI-focals don't get along well with auto-dimmers. Just used to the head flip. Plus I can change shade 9 to 11 between the 2 welders.

DonE next time buying wire etc. go to a welders supply store 15 bucks for the large spool they sell by the pound and I find better quality. I can get a half dozen tips for the same price as 2 retail. If your going to one already ask them why your paying retail? After using .030 in the big machine. I switched to same for the small one from .023. I find it gives better control and a nicer weld overall. Your gas price is about same if your tank is waist high from floor.

Bill


Bill Brayford

One thing to consider about the auto-darkening helmets is how is the thing powered. A friend bought one that uses phtot cells instead of batteries and most of the time it works just fine. Then one evening he went under a car to weld on a bracket for a Panhard rod and made an amazing discovery. It didn't auto-darken under the car because there wasn't enough light. Needless to say, we had a good laugh at his expense about it after the fact, but it wasn't that funny at the time.

As far as equipment, we tend to fall into the more power camp with Miller equipment for GMAW/MIG (the MillerMatic 251 mentioned by Bill above) and GTAW/TIG that is more industrial in nature, but the main thing to think about is how much you will be using it. Since you are not planning on using to make a living welding, anything with a reasonable duty cycle will do. Duty cycle comes into play more when you are in a welding production environment. For hobby use where you can take time and not really push the equipment it is not as important. On the shielding front, gas shielding is the way to go as opposed to flux core wire for the GMAW/MIG welding. We use an argon/CO2 mix for GMAW/MIG and argon for GTAW/TIG. We use GMAW/MIG for steel only and GTAW/TIG for steel and everything else. I guess it is the aerospace influence on us. Hobart (bought by Miller a few years ago), Miller, Lincoln stuff all works pretty well, but I am partial to Miller just because I've spent more time with their stuff than anyone else's.
SteveP

SteveP

Well there seems to be a war going. But just for my interest. I know I'm nosy but. What exactly do you do. I hear Tr knowledge of all kinds in great depth. Racing etc.

Then I hear panhards? Nah not on TRs.

Yes if I live long enough and can talk the wife out of spending money on things like food and grandkids. I will buy and learn TIG. Best method. Not sure if I can do 3 things at same time though?

Best welding story I have is under car winter coveralls on quite late at night. Not knowing Fire apron wiggled over one side. I was stopped to planish a bit. Looking out side of helmet due to low overhead. I noticed young friends cowboy boots walking over real slow. Over welder and music I yelled yah and heard. "Hey Bud your on fire" slid out fast and he poured beer on front of coveralls putting me out. Outside coverall chest had burned completely off.

When I asked him how come he was so slow about it. He said he didn't want to scare me and screw up the weld? After all it was his car? That was 15 years ago and we are both older. But I still tell the story and he still ducks because he knows something heavy is coming at him at the end.


Bill



Bill Brayford

Thanks for all the great info. I am not in the market for a welder now. I just want the shop wired for one. I have plenty of 10-3 around as I wired a nat. gas generator sub panel to my main breaker. One thing I forgot to think about is a seperate compressor line. I just mostly turn nuts by hand. I have a small compressor to run my nail guns and small acc.
Don K.
DON KELLY

Short answer, engineer with background in structures and materials and a bunch of crazy friends over the years.

Did forget to mention that on rare occasion have used argon/helium mix for GTAW/TIG. It gives a little zippier arc, kind of like going up to 11.

SteveP

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the answer both on and off BBS. Those are quite the structures to have a background in!!!! And quite the friends.

Helium? Not a gas expert but would imagine it would give a zip to the weld. Remember the Hindenberg. Now I realy have problems going to Tig. Not sure if I can handle 3 things at same time is one thing. Talking like Donald Duck as well might drive me over the edge. Ugly mig welds may have to do for awhile.

Bill





Bill Brayford

You're thinking of hydrogen there with the Hindenberg - not exactly an "inert gas"...
Brent B

Thanks to all who answered my posting. I have one (at least for now) more ?. All those nice units everybody talked about, what style of plug do they use. Standard 3 prong like on tools,3 prong as on a generator or more of a appliance style. Much appreciated!
Don K.
DON KELLY

My SIP welder came with no plug on the 20 foot long 220 volt cable, so I put on a 3-prong 220 v. circular plug with the 90 degree tab or "key" on the ground wire. Then I bought another 20 ft length of 3-wire cable and a plug and a socket as above to use as an extension so I can weld about 40 feet away from my plug on the back wall. No, my garage isn't that big, but when I have my own TR3A in one corner and the two I'm building into one good TR spread all over the rest of the garage, I might need to do some welding out in the driveway.

Don Elliott, 1958 TR3A
Don Elliott

This thread was discussed between 19/03/2003 and 28/03/2003

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