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Triumph TR6 - Won't turn over
| Ok, I recently aquired a '75 TR6 from my father. The car ran great for a while but all of a sudden I'm having problems. Stay with me now, I'm gonna give you all the info I can. I was stopped at a light, in neutal with my foot on the brake. The car had only been running for a few minutes when it suddenly stopped as I was sitting there. Just died. I went to start it up again, but no dice...it just wouldn't turn over. I pushed it into a parking lot and left it for a few hours. I came back and tried again with no success. I opened the hood (like I know what I'm doing) and started checking wire connections and what not. I went back to start it up and success! It idled a little low, so I pulled the choke out a bit...it's idling about 8k for a few seconds...and then died. I havn't been able to get it to start since. Any ideas at where to look for the possible cause? any help you guys can give me would be great. Thanks -Mike |
| Mike |
| Here is a response I sent to someone with a same year car to yours and mine and had a similar problem, while it might not be what is wrong with your it is perhaps something to think about or look into: (excerpt) Try this: pull the rubber fuel line off on the front carb and manually prime the pumb (make sure the car is off. You will find the pump near the left side of the engine block just above the oil filter. nderneth the pump is a lever and you can anually pump it. find out if it is throwing fuel. If not then most likely the diaphram is toast, you can buy a rebuild kit. If you get gas pumping out then the problem could be a stuck needle valve or water-logged float but chances are rare that both would fail at the same time as the car would sort of stumble running if one of the carbs are out of wack. Are you getting spark would be my first check. I have a 1975 and all of a sudden my car quit on me on route to my cottage and could not fix the car on the side of the road as I could not find the cuprit in the electrical system. After the car got towed I spent many hours going through the whole system and found that the resistor line (burried in the main harness) had burnt out. The line/wire reduces voltage from 12v to 6v before it reaches the coil. My modification: I rigged up a new wire from the fuse box to go to the coil (use a heavy guage) then it enters a ballast resistor that is piggy-backed to the coil and from the other end of the ballast is a short wire crimpted with connectors to the lead on the coil. The Ballast I used is one for Ford/Mercury vehicles 1959 to 1980 as that had the correct Ohms resistance. I carry an extra one in the glove box just in-case it burns out and the repair would be quick and easy. So far (4 years and counting) it never has happened again and never got DOA on the road. The Ballast get very hot and is made of ceramic material and since it is mounted on the block which is already hot won't incure a problem. Hope it helps |
| Steven |
| Hi Mike, If the car is not even turning over, then I would think it is probably something electrical. Since it died while running, I would not think it is a weak battery, but would not rule that out. Do you have 12+ volts on your gauge? Then I would look for a loose or dirty wire, especially since futzing with the wires may have helped it start after letting it sit. These cars are old. One of the first things I did when I got mine was clean and redo most of the connections. This made a some difference with lights, etc. Dielectric grease is a godsend! If you have voltage and all the connections seem good, and it still is not turning over, then I would tap on the starter with a wrench. (I had a car that would not turn over sometimes, and for sore reason, this worked.) I suppose you can check the voltage at the starter to see if it is getting any power when you crank the ignition too. Ignatius |
| Ignatius |
| Mike I would go striaght to the alternator. Since it died at the light while running the starter isn't the problem. An alternater that is on its way out will sometimes work off and on til it finally goes. Good luck, Chris |
| Christopher Trace |
| Thank you all for the suggestions, I certainly have some tings to look into now. I'll post with an update when I can. -Mike |
| Mike |
| Ok, I got it home at least. All I did was disconnect the wires from the spark plugs. A few of them had a little white build-up on them, I wiped it off and reconnected the wires...low and behold, it started. On the way home it cut off again, and the same remedy worked. Does anyone know what this may indicate? -Mike |
| Mike |
| Hi Mike I am guessing the car turns over and trys to start from your latest post. Did it crank at all times and just not start before or just go click? Did you have the battery charged to get it going alternator problems? re: Chrises post? If not. The white stuff. Old Plugs and wires. The connectors on the plug wires are aluminum coated from your description. The white stuff is aluminum corosion intensified and emulsified by high voltage. Aluminum likes to mate with aluminum preferably without atmosphere. It corrodes very quickly connected to unlike material with atmosphere and electrical current. Atmosphere being moisture, acid, salt, soot and oxygen pretty much in that order nowadays. Most tin electrical contacts have a fine aluminum coating preventing rust like plugs and plug connectors. And almost all Auto elecrical connectors. This is fine the first or second time they are connected. The 3rd time you have Aluminum to tin unlike material aluminum corosion plus atmosphere plus rust were the tin is exposed. Hence your $3 aluminum stereo connections and $40 gold. Wires may still be OK??? But need to be cleaned and polished at both connector ends to get rid of Resistance and corosion. And then lots of dilectric grease on each connection after cleaning to prevent further corosion. Depending on the type of plug wire I would replace. The connection to inner core may be bad as well. How long has it been since the car was driven on a regular basis. Did you change the oil and filter. If you want reliable replace plugs and wires and do a complete tune up. If it was stored for a long time drain gas tank as well old gas does not combust well nor does water in gas tank. USE DILECTRIC GREASE ON ALL ELECTRICAL CONTACTS prevents moisture and atmosphere getting at them. Like Plug Wires TO plugs. Not on actual point contacts though. US probably about 3 bucks a tube. Welcome to the club. None of us know everything about what tricks a TR can play on us? But combined knowledge really works. And at some point or another we are all at the "so like I'd know" in your post just different levels. As Don pointed out you have to learn your own cars Gremlins and ask. I have been at it about 30 years, others on this site longer. Everyday I read this BBS I pick up a new trick. My kids some well over 30 and one older Grandkid want all my toys when BUILT and pretty! RULE: DAD builds Dad drives. Lifes tough. This way is to the shop not the gym. Your already halfway there you have the car. IT'S YOUR TURN. Good work on descriptions Hope to help Bill |
| B Brayford |
| Bill, thanks for the post. From the beginning the enginge would crank, not just click. So I knew the battery was probably not the problem, I was getting 13v from it as I was trying to start it. As far as the alternator goes, it's only about two years old, and hasn't been subjected to an excessive amount of wear and tear since the car was mainly garage kept up until about five months ago. The spark plug wires were replaced around the same time. I'll try to get some of that dilectric grease and clean up the connections. I just have to find the time, since I'm trying to balance this car and the last few months of school. Thanks again for the help guys. I hope I can get this thing working right again. -Mike |
| Mike |
| Mike, go back to my 2nd post and check to see if you are getting 6V from the line in to the coil and 12v when you are cranking again from the line into the coil. If you are not then perhaps your resistance wire is fried. It seems that it is more than just a common problem on late model TR6's and had me stumped for a bit until I isolated this problem. The other problem is I was also frying my condensor and once that was gone the car would not start. I was going through condensors at a rate of 1 a month. Although it does not make sense but since I replace the resistor line with a ballast scenario and rebuilt my dist this problem has not re-occured. I think that you got all us mixed up as your post said that 'Engine won't turn over' which meant a starter / battery problem. Think you meant was 'engine turns over but will not catch'. The white stuff is a strange one on your plug tops as if it was not a secure connection then the arcing would cause a blackend condition. I have not really ever come across a corrosion problem with mixing of metals on the HT wires and plugs. |
| Steven |
| Hey Mike and Steven, Mike follow Stevens instructions as well I forgot that. Getting old. The unlike metals comes from 38 years in the electonic service business. And a 2 year course 1972 in Industrial mechanics self interest only for playing with and inventing hotrods. Welding, machining, metalurgy etc. The white stuff in plug wires I became aware of in the 60s keeping my BSA motorcycle running in California in my Hippy days. I grew up in Northern Sakatchewan and the only white stuff I knew of was snow. thought of that when I saw Florida and white stuff. I have not had that problem in Canada either but I think it may be just the same as your aluminum corosion on top of your carbs accelerated by warm salty air, resistance and high voltage? And of course I would be more than happy to spend a week in Orlando testing that theory Mike.(: Bill |
| B Brayford |
| Hi fellas, Sorry for the delay in posting...I have school for about 16 hrs a day and that doesn't leave me a lot of free time. Well, not much news on the car, I'm still having the same problem. Steven, unfortunately I have nothing that would allow me to test the voltage from the coil, and I lack the electrical expertise to rig up a ballast wire anyway. I thank you guys for trying to help, but I think I'm just going to have to break down and have someone qualified take a look at it. -Mike |
| Mike |
| you need to check the voltage going to the coil. make sure you are getting 6v when the ign switch is on and 12v when switch is turned to start. All you need is a multimeter and set it to DC These meters are cheap I paid about $27 CDN for a digital one, and analogue one can be had for about $12. Check and see if you are getting these readings and if you are not I can draw you a sketch of how to install the ballast resistor |
| Steven |
| Ok, So I got an analog multimeter, now what do I do with it. I dont know where the "coil" that you spoke of is located, or how to use the multimeter. Your help and patience are greatly appreciated. -Mike |
| Mike |
| turn the multimeter selector to V with a straight line above it (DC) set it to 20 if you can; V with a ~ is AC. On the coil there are 3 leads: center is the HT wire which goes to the center of the dist; the one to the left is a short thin wire going to the side of the dist which is the LT wire; the remaining wire is the voltage wire coming off of your wiring harness- the one you need. Unplug this wire and attach the red lead from the meter in to connector on the wire (not the ign coil itself), the other lead from the meter (black) ground it either on the engine block on the - on the batt. Have an assistant turn the key to 'on' and you should be getting around 6-7v. Next have your assistant turn the key to start and you should see that the meter go to around 12-13V. Oh, make sure the car is not in gear If you don't get any voltage you could have a fried resistor wire (like I had on my 1975 TR) If that is the case I will write part 2 in rigging up a ballast. |
| Steven |
| the coil is a cylinder shaped thing with a nipple on top and is located on the left side of the engine bolted to the block half way down... |
| Steven |
| Ok, first off my key/ignition area has no labels, I don't know if they wore off or it never had any but in either case the breakdown goes like this: P(osiotion)1 with key horizontal, there is no reading; P2 key turned one click, there is no reading; P3 key turned two clicks, I get a reading of about 11 or 12; P4 key turned all the way, the reading drops down to around 9 as the engine tries to start. I think I'm reading the meter right, but I'm not entirely sure. I had it set to DC at the 50 mark (my MM jumps from 10 to 50, no 20 setting). If I read it correctly, then I'm assuming that points to the fried resistance wire you were talking about. Your help with this is greatly appreciated. -Mike |
| Mike |
| Hey Rick C. your up |
| DON KELLY |
| Don K I will stay out of this one. The "Ontario connection" is doing a bang up job. Besides, I do not have a ballasted system. Mike If you step outside your front door you will hear the clapping of hands coming from the great white north. Your last post is exactly what Steven wants to hear. My hat is off to you for stickin' with it. Mike the whole purpose of this BBS is to help each other and keep our little brits running. See...you do not have to go to school to learn everything. 16 HRS a day...WOW! Steven, the ball is in your court. I will definitely be following this thread to see how u make out Mike. Have fun!!! Rick C |
| Rick Crawford |
| Ok, I've been looking for help on this everywhere on the net and other BBS and mechanics and whatnot. The mechanic that checked out the car just before I got it said that the symptoms my car is showing could point to a problem in the ignition set, and that to test it, all I had to do was unplug one of the spark plug wires and hold a screwdriver close to the end of the contact(on the wire, not the plug). He said that if I saw a spark jump when I turned the key, then the ignintion set was probably not the problem, but I didn't see a spark. Do you think that this information is correct? Should I go ahead and replace the ignition set (he said it was easy), or do you still think that it may be that the ballast setup is the way to go? |
| Mike |
| Mike I said I was going to keep out of this one but I just could not resist..you see I have this image in my head of you holding a screwdriver in one hand and a spark plug wire in the other and thought you needed some help. In order for the spark to be seen/occur, ( if it will spark) you need to hold the tip of the screwdriver against the engine block so you have a grounding path. Place the spark plug wire close to the screwdrive and have someone try to start the car..do not just turn the ignition to on...you need to turn the engine over. Look for a spark arking from the wire to the blade of the screwdriver. I strongly suggest you do not touch the blade of the screwdriver as the engine is turning over. If no spark then let us know as it may be time for the resister. Rick C |
| Rick Crawford |
| Mike, Try fitting a new set of contact breaker points. I have had a set fail suddenly, symptoms as you described, immediately after returning to the paddock after a mile-long hillclimb. The engine died,and would not restart, very embarrassing. The points seemed to have a normal gap but had erroded internally giving a high-resistance even when closed. Cleaning with emory paper had no effect, but a new set cured the problem. Didn't make me any faster up the hill though, slowest as usual. |
| P Cobbold |
| Mike, I have just read your mechanic's suggestion ( your 18 Nov post). He's right and the lack of spark points to the contact breaker, or 'ignition set' as I must learn to call it. Its a simple job, but if you have not done it before make sure you fit the flexible wire to the post correctly, its easy to get the insulating washer fitted to the post incorrectly ( unscrew the nut on the the old points carefully noting the position of steel and plastic washers). You will need a 15 thou feeler guage to set the points gap accurately. |
| P Cobbold |
| Ok Rick, I tried it the way you said, and still no spark. So what now? Does this indicate a problem with the ignition set or does it mean I need to set up a resistance wire? Thanks for the help guys, I never dreamed this would be such a pain in the ass. -Mike |
| Mike |
| to check for spark I usually get a spare spark plug detatch the ignition wire and plug it in to that wire and ground the plug usually on the bolt on the rocker cover and have someone turn over the engine. Check this in a darkened room so that you can see the faint blue spark arcing in the plug if you are not getting a spark check: 1 inside the dist cap make sure that the carbon center brush is still there and can depress it and not missing. 2. With your new electrical meter set it to the Omega symbol and test the LT let for continuity from the coil to the distributor (the LT wire is the thin cloth braided wire). 3 I had a problem one time blowing condensors and that would leave me dead on road and then the car would not start. These are cheap to test as a condensor is about $3 it is alway good to keep a spare one. 4 check for continuity for the HT lead from ign coil to center of dist If you are not getting continuity then the line is blown. Over to Rick, Rick C, Don, Bill, Christopher PS if you are getting spark then you have a fuel problem |
| Steven |
| Mike First off, I hope you where just kidding when u said pain in the butt. Do not forget you are dealing with a 30 year old car that is bound to ( and will) have problems. I congratulate u on your efforts so far. OK so what now? "Canadian connection help me out here". Yes your ballast resistor may need replacing but I also think you are due for a tune up. Which means replace points and condensor ( ignition set), possibly new distributor cap, new wires, a properly gapped set of BOSCH platinum plugs, and finally have the carburetors ( have not spelled that word out in full for a long time:) ballanced/tuned. The 2 things above that you WILL have difficulty with is replacing the points and condensor and almost impossible (without propper tools and knowledge) will be the carbs. My TR friend, I strongly suggest you find yourself a mechanic that KNOWS( this word is very important) Triumph sports cars. I am almost possitive there is someone in FL that is capable of working on TRs. http://members.tripod.com/cftriumph/ http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/4777/index.html http://members.wbs.net/homepages/c/f/t/cftr/cftrmain.htm The above 3 links are from FL and I am sure if you e-mailed them you would get a reply (the third link may be out of date). Talk nice to one of these guys and I would put money on it that if you buy the parts you could talk him into coming over to your place and doing the work for a few beer and a steak. Good luck Mike Rick C |
| Rick Crawford |
This thread was discussed between 18/10/2002 and 27/11/2002
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