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MG MGB GT V8 Factory Originals Technical - ECOTEC engine

There is little mentioned in the archives about this engine. In a thread from December, 2003 N.R.Leach of Colorado mentions that if the ECOTEC engine bolted up to the T5 tranny he would have something to get rev'd up about. Pontiac has taken orders for the first 1000 of it's new ECOTEC powered Solstice which is rear wheel drive. Of course it will be while before any of these drive trains end up for sale in the bone yards but what do you all think of this for an MGB conversion? I can't say that I am seriously considering this because I have already had a few false starts in my own attempts to do a conversion and will probably drive my roadster with it's original engine forever but I would like to hear what others think. And of course what you think about the new Solstice too!
Dana Wilson

A perk of living in metro Detroit is the guys who design these cars live in neighborhoods like the rest of us normal people, and when they're not at work, they usually don't have a problem belting out their honest opinions about things.

A fellow musician at my church is/was an engineer on the solstice drivetrain and when I asked him about the car his words were: "That thing scares me. It's a piece of crap." Now this guy makes a living by that company selling cars, so for him to say "It's a piece of crap." speaks volumes to me. His normal project is the Z06 corvette and they pulled him off that, and put him on the solstice because they were having so many problems with it.

I'll pass on that one for now...
Justin

Compared to a Z06 Corvette, what isn’t a piece of crap?
George Champion

My previous comment sounds rude so I’ll add some more. The ECOTEC was a new name for an old motor, the Iron Duke. I don’t know how old the original design is or how much change went into it before the name change or since, but from what I read the version that is going in the Solstice has 170 bhp. Compare that to the B series motor that was never over 100 and as low as 63 then also compare it to the 137 that the factory MGBGT V8 was rated and it sounds like a possibility. I’m pretty amazed at the power four cylinder motors can produce. Before too long sales of the Solstice will stabilize and Pontiac will offer a supercharged version that will produce a couple hundred bhp.

The plus here isn’t that someone could buy the drive train from a Solstice to put in an MGB, but rather than parts will become available that will help in swaps. There’s more to it than that and I have no idea how the ECOTEC will fit in the MGB.

Justin,
I’m glad you have a source that can provide valuable information and that you posted it, thank you. Still I have to point out that your fellow musician engineer is used to working on 400 bhp Corvette Z06 drive trains so I’m not shocked that he has little respect for something that only does 170.

To get the Solstice ready for the first car show it had parts from all over GM and some impressive parts at that. Four-wheel disc brakes from Cadillac, aluminum independent rear suspension from SAAB I think it was and the six-speed transmission from Corvette. All that and the supercharged motor for under 20k US dollars, but reality set in and the nice parts were downgraded to keep the price goal. I expect the six-speed Corvette transmission went with the supercharger so I won’t argue with the engineer, but I would keep things in perspective.
George Champion

I'm one of those people that believes excellence should be the goal in everything. Just because it's not a 500hp Z06 isn't justification for the engineering to be shoddy. A 170hp motor should be equally as well engineered as the 500hp one. I believe my friend's comments were from an engineering standpoint not a: "this thing don't make 500hp so it must suck" standpoint.
Justin

George, the Iron Duke was a Pontiac rework of the old Chevy 4 cylinder Nova engine from the early '60's. The Ecotec is a rework of the Quad4. DOHC, 4 valves per cylinder and all the modern technology. It's a great engine to put into an MGB to update it for the new century and not spend an arm and a leg for gas.
John Perkins

This is all good. One of the blurbs I read about the Solstice mentions the Aisin transmision. I have never heard of it before. Can anyone shed some light on it
?
Dana Wilson

Walk into any large engineering office, and I can guarantee you'll find at least one person who'll tell you the products produced by that company are the greatest thing ever produced, far superior to anything the competition makes, and I'll also gaurantee you'll find at least one person who'll tell you the products are junk. Strangely enough, both of them will honestly and firmly believe what they are telling you. I would never base a judgement of a product on the opinon of one person, even if that person is intimately involved in the production of that product.

Been there, seen that. I worked in a very large engineering office.
Dan Masters

Aisin transmission I believe is a Borg Warner auto trans copy made in Japan. The Volvo 240 models had them starting around 1982-3 . They were a 4 speed o/d trans in the Volvo. I used to own one of those old pots . Was glad to see the tailights disappear over the horizon with the new owner at the wheel. Will never buy a Volvo again. As the WHO said in one of their songs "Won't be fooled again" FWIW ALyn
Alyn

"I'm one of those people that believes excellence should be the goal in everything."

Perfection requires infinite resources. No one has infinite resources. Every thing ever made is a compromise.

An allowable compromise in a 170 HP engine might not be allowable in a 500 HP engine.

Someone buying a $10,000 car has should have no expectations of getting the quality of excellence that he would expect in a $50,000 car.

Sometimes, good enough really is good enough.
Dan Masters

You ASSUME that excellence is perfection, and that is a wrong assumption! Excellence is doing the best you can with what you have. If you have the engineering to make a 170hp motor that is fuel efficient, and lasts a long time, then you should make one.

The goal of the project should reflect the level of excellence as well. If the goal is a low cost, reliable vehicle, then achieve it with excellence. Don't do sloppy engineering that won't stand the test of time and write it off as: "it's a low cost car, why should we make it good?" Because you're sticking your name on it, that's why. This type of mentality is why I drive a Honda. I know that even if I got a civic, it would last as long as my accord. I accept that I'm giving up ride comfort and ammenities if I buy a civic, but I'm not giving up quality of parts, assembly, nor longevity of life.

Someone buying a $10,000 car has as much right to expect excellence as the person spending $50K on a car.

Someone should teach that to Detroit. Maybe GM wouldn't have posted their biggest loss in around 15 years if they had taken that lesson to heart when Honda and Toyota did.

Excellence does NOT equal perfection, but it's usually darn close!
Justin
Justin

My, my, my, I thought I was defusing my quick comment and still seemed to offend.

Justin it wasn’t my intention to insult the opinion of your friend the former Corvette engineer and now reluctant Solstice engineer. As I said I appreciate his opinion, but what would be really nice is to hear what he doesn’t like or where the problem lies rather than just his summery that it’s “crap”. Somewhere in there must be both good and bad components and it would be beneficial to all to know what might be usable in a conversion and what should be avoided.

Although I agree good engineering is critical particularly in safety features such as the braking system, but I’ve heard the term “over engineered” which could refer to Corvette transmission behind a 170 bhp motor. Not that the sixth gear is always preferred, but if a lighter weight transmission will also handle the torque then overall performance is enhanced and that would be good engineering. The same would hold when selecting a rear axel for an MGB V8 swap. The Ford 9” is regarded as an outstanding axel, but it’s heavier than others that can handle all but the most powerful MGB conversions.

Since I’m not attacking your friend and I don’t take it anyone else is why don’t you see if he could elaborate for the good of all?

John thanks for clearing up the history of those motors. I don’t want to post incorrect information that somebody might rely on. I know someone that had a Quad-4 and I was impressed with it. I couldn’t help but think how nice it would be to use one in an MGB if only a bell housing were available. If the Solstice uses a variation of that motor and a conventional transmission then such a conversion might be possible as parts become available which was the original point of this thread. I did not bother to do any measuring, but it looked possible although the intake looked very bulky and made it seem about the size of 60 degree V6s.

Dana good luck it looks as if there are many unanswered questions.
George Champion

Manta part lists a quad 4 bellhousing for rwd, and I thought there may also be another one that slipd my mind right now...
greg fast

For information on installing a Quad4 in an RWD configuration, check out http://www.quad4rods.com/ They make bellhousings to adapt T5s and TH2004R transmissions to Quad4s and it appears they are doing the same thing for Ford duratec and zetec engines.
John Perkins

I was more poking at Dan then so George. I didn't and don't take offense to anything that was said. I enjoy a little playful banter from time to time. =)

The next time we play together I'll ask my friend to elaborate on his opinion. He owes me a joyride in the new Z06 anyway, so maybe I can coax it out of him then.

All is well here, (except for my fuel injection...hehe)
Justin
Justin

The Aisin gearbox listed in the factory promo's for the Solstice show it as the AW5. I'm speculating, but if past practice is to be followed, then this gearbox could be yet another version of the Aisin/Toyota R154 5-speed out of the 87-92 Supra Turbo. Aisin is known for using different versions of the same tranny in various applications with different gear ratio's. This is not a bad thing. GM currently using a version in the Canyon/Colorado pickups called the MA5. Anyway, if it is true, then there will be a RWD bellhousing to bolt the Ecotech to a Supra trans. Currently, there are none available. The Quad 4 uses a different bolt pattern than the Ecotech.

http://www.jeeps-offroad.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4095

Greg
Greg

TONGUE IN CHEECK:

re: Excellence is doing the best you can with what you have.
***********

Then.....Is the phrase "Yugo equals excellence" a true statement?!

(Substitute "Pinto, Vega, or the stereotype of Edsel)

END OF TONGUE IN CHEEK.

I respect the efforts of those in the engineering market. God know that I don't have the capability of doing so!

rick
rick ingram

Dan's earlier comments regarding the differing opinions to be found even in one office are certainly valid. What is not usually known is how much one person wanted to get the glory by heading a project then missed out and thereafter refers to anything related to said aforementioned project as a pile of steaming horse droppings.

Incidently the ECOTEC nomenclature gets a mention this far South as well. Holden Australia has recently discontinued the use of it in favour of the more exotic ALLOYTEC for the new all alloy 60 degree V6 of 3.6 ltrs.
Details at www.holden.com.au then view range then Commodore then technical details for those interested.

All engineering is a compromise and despite the advertising dept's spin costs are watched very closely in year one or the company goes to the wall in year two.
More often than not the overriding desire is to use as much as is already in current production as possible and hence engineering excellence is more a distant goal than a day to day reality.
Besides who is going to pay for all this engineering excellence?

Cheers , Pete.
Peter Thomas

If you want to use an ECOTEC, do it. I personally like the Ford ZETEC so thats what Im using. I am also using a T5. The bellhousing I bought (www.quad4rods.com) was from a company that also makes bellhousings to convert the ECOTEC to a T5 and RWD. Give them a shout. Very helpful and they wont bring up the differences between a V8 and a 4 cylinder, because thats just wasted air.

And lets face it, Ford has the best V8's, not Chevy. HAHA
Jarrod Hills

Interesting deffinations of excellence.
Excellence is when the agreed mission is accomplish.
The accomplish mission may not be the best for the masses.

I am sure the Solstice will see the 60 degree V6 in the future. I saw one at the proving grounds by luck while doing a tour of the track.
Bill Guzman

Bill,
If the agreed mission is accomlish a mediocre result is this still considered excellence?

Pedantic semantics asidethe definition of excellence for one person may well fall short of the definition of excellence for another.

Cheers , Pete.
Peter Thomas

Pete, YES!The mission was completed as plan by the group or inidvidual. The result maybe excellent for the group or individual, but not for you or me.
everyone has different standards,taste and understanding of any given product.
Bill Guzman

Both the Pinto and the Vega could have been built with the same degree of excellence as a Rolls Royce. It should be fairly obvious why they weren't. Should they have been built with a higher degree of excellence than they were? Depends on well they hit the maker's criteria.

Every car made by any car company is made for one reason and one reason only - to maximize profit. If increasing quality decreases profits, then it's a BAD idea. If increasing quality increases profits, then it's a good idea. Every product made has a "sweet spot" - that ideal combination of quality, cost of production, and selling price that maximizes profit. The closer a manufacturer can come to hitting that sweet spot, the higher the degree of "design and engineering" excellence achieved. That is NOT the same as the degree of excellence in the final product.

Some people demand and can afford Rolls Royce quality. The rest of us compromise. To survive and flourish, most manufacturers have to cater to us. ALL manufacturers have to make a profit.

Shareholders of large corporattions such as GM and Ford demand profits - the higher the better. The board members would be ran out of town on a rail if they announced they were increasing quality by slashing profits.
Dan Masters

This thread was discussed between 19/04/2005 and 28/04/2005

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