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MG MGB GT V8 Factory Originals Technical - LPG conversion

Hi All,

has anyone any experience of converting a factory V8 GT to LPG? Any comments on cost of conversion, ease etc. appreciated. Particularly interested in UK sources since I live close to Liverpool, Merseyside.
cheers,
steve

Steve Coulson

My MG B GT V8 (factory original) runs on LPG. But I live in the Netherlands. If you are still interested in the story I could send you certainly send you some info. It a very good combination. The tank will fit under the wooden board in the back. Filler piece can go through the right hand side reverse light.

Frank
Frank de Groot

Hi Frank,

I am still curious, although I have less room in the roadster boot.

Will the system work with EFi as well as carbs ?

Mike
Michael barnfather

Yep, no problem. I still have the factory original twin SU setup, and I run LPG. The big single pipe of the Hotwire system will make seting up easier, but as you see the SU setup works just as well. If you want to, I can send some pics. I also kept the small story of how I got to LPG-ing my car; same as I send to Marc Gander (was also interested).
I can also send a pricelist a chap here in Holland send me about LPG installations. Just let me know.

Frank
Frank de Groot

Chaps,
sorry I dont know much about LPG converstions but I did come across this bit of info. the other day. Read about the types of heads required for LPG converstions by panning down the page.
HTH
http://www.ajmac.co.uk/v8-swops.htm
Cecil Kimber

High compression is nice, but LPG will run on low compression as well. Actually, if you could run only on lpg, you could give your engine something like 14:1 cr. Maybe even higher.

Frank
Frank de Groot

Steve

RPI site has info on LPG

http://www.rpiv8.com/faq-lpg.htm

Paul
Paul

Does anyone know what the complete cost of fitting out to LPG is?
And who is best to go to in the UK to get it done? Or is it better to go to Europe?
T.Green

That RPi site is pretty good. Didn't see any info on SU setup. Has anyone done this yet?
Stuart Robson

I buy basic LPG kits from the local wholesaler for £199 + vat. This is tank, vaporiser and controls. The mixer and pipe are extra (about £25 or so depending on vehicle. If EFi then about another £50).
EXACTLY the same items are fitted by installers charging £1000 so you can see what sort of mark up there is. It takes approx half a day to install neatly - people don't realise how much they are being ripped off !
The suppler will sell to anyone asn is not "trade only". I enquired and they would be happy to sell on a mail order basis and have premises for them to install if desired.
Paul Humphries

Hi Paul,
you mail seems to fall into the 'too good to be true' catagory. Do you fit these kits? This seems a very reasonable conversion but I have no wish to buy something that will fail (inevitably when it is raining, dark and I am in good clothes). Any more info would be much appreciated.

Steve
Steve Coulson

Stuart,

Frank has.

Paul
Paul

Paul,

I have long suspected that there has been a substantial mark-up on LPG conversions. My main concern is loss of luggage space, as the MG is used mainly for long distance motoring, and the boss will insist on taking clothes with her for some reason !( plus I need space for important things such as spares, and bottles of wine on the return journey.)

Mike
Michael barnfather

"Which all sounds marvellous. But are LPG cars the wonderful breakthrough they are made out to be? One incident has sent a shiver through the industry. In January 1999 in Venissieux, a grubby suburb of Lyon, firemen were called to a blazing car that vandals had set on fire. As they approached the car after putting out the flames, it exploded. They had no idea the car had an LPG tank. Six firemen suffered severe burns; one lost a leg.
In the wake of this incident, Auto Plus, a French motoring magazine, did tests on LPG tanks and set them alight. The blast was comparable to 50–70kg of TNT. Eurotunnel has always refused to carry LPG cars as they haven't yet been subject to Europe-wide manufacturing standards and conversions don't always require the person doing the work to be properly licensed.
Much of the controversy centres on a pressure-release valve that should be fitted to the tank. In case of fire it releases gas slowly so that there is no explosion. The car in Lyon didn't have one as it was not a legal requirement in Europe at the time.
In the UK such valves have long been mandatory for all LPG vehicles. But with the LPG market burgeoning, cowboy firms are springing up offering dangerous—and environmentally unfriendly—conversions. Some motoring magazines even carry adverts for DIY conversion kits. So are we sitting, quite literally, on an LPG time bomb?
"There have been cases of poorly converted vehicles that can compromise safety," confirms Neil Wallis, programme manager at TransportAction Powershift, a government-funded initiative that promotes clean-fuel vehicles. "The industry is moving so fast that it's hard to bring in new regulations quickly enough."

A survey amongst 15 of the largest motor-insurance companies found that eight of them would not insure a non-approved or DIY conversion. "

http://www.readersdigest.co.uk/magazine/environment2.htm
Paul Hunt

Paul

Thanks ;^)

Frank

I've looked for details for SU implementations and had little result. I would be very grateful if you could forward some pictures of your installation - especially interested in your carb/manifold setup. Have you got a website yet? - Save posting to every Tom,Dick and Stuart

Rgds

Stuart

Stuart Robson

Paul Wiley,

I wonder if you could send details of your supplier?

Paul Hunt,

the detonating tanks is an important worry, also crash resistance in, lets face it, more fragile MGs compared to modern Volvos etc.

steve
Steve Coulson

My opinion is that a lot of LPG installers used to sell burglar alarms, double glazing, mobile phones or what ever is the "current get rich quick scheme". A few I spoke to didn't know anything about what they were doing and simply followed the instructions supplied with the kit despite calling themselves "LPG specialist" because they had done a basic safety course which last about half a day (you the kind of think - don't look for leaks with a naked flame )!
If you use a quality kit of parts it should conform to current regulations without any problems with all the appropriate release valves etc.
Like a lot of other safety related items like brake and fuel lines, rebuilding calipers, welding structual items etc you may be best in having it check over by an independant engineer after a DIY installation. How may of use feel we are competent to say weld on sills, change brake pipes or even a V8 into MGB engine transplant without worrying that we are creating a "death trap" because we know the standard of our own workmanship. Bet the installers who charge massive mark-ups for installing the £250 kits are among the higest number of installations which failed the safety checks ! Anyone have feed back as to how many of the "failed" installations were DIY ?
Like I say - if in doubt get it checked and it might even be an insurance requirement. My insurers just made a note on their records and didn't want an inspection which I would have been quite happy to have down as I consider I did a good job. A professional installer has inspected my instaltion and says he wouldn't have done a better job and wouldn't have been so neat ! It's a case of "times money" when paying professionals so maybe a company with a good reputation,rather than low price, what to go for if in doubt.
In my MGB GT I intend replacing the original fuel tank with a round LPG tank and having a custom made, say 2 gallon, alloy tank made to fit under the rear seat where the second battery would go in a twin battery car. A long filler nossle will be the only thing to sort out and hasn't been fully thought out yet. I intend to install a towbar and will mount the LPG filler there which is a common place. On my old 240 Volvo I mounted it in the rear body under the original pertol filler but regret this as it doesn't seem very good as the panel flexes when the LPG filler is attached.

My local supplier is -

ARCOTHERM LTD, Croft Ho. Croft St, Burslem, Stoke-on-Trent, Staffs, Tel 01782 838676.

Whether they still do the basic £199 kits I cann't confirm but I can recommend them - even if they install or supply just parts/ kit.

BTW we officially have the cheapest LPG in UK at Stoke-on-Trent @ 27.5ltr (tax paid) !
Paul Humphries

Sorry, have been away some days. LPG and SU setup is compatible. However, the bigger the hole/tube through which you get your air in, the easier tuneable the system is.
I recognize the signs only too well: "cheap LPG, legal, come to me, we're quick". I had one of those cheapo's work on my car the first time as well. Let's summarize it: not even the tune was good, let alone the vaporiser.
A good kit consists of a tandem vaporiser. You can buy DIY kits that are very good and even include an in-car lambda meter, so you can tune the installation even under load. I will forward pictures of my car.
The legal side of things (explosions). There are EU laws on these things. Over here - as in the UK - these "blow off" valves are mandatory. Also, the tank cannot be filled to over 80%. Besides that, every MOT test checks your system.

Frank
Frank de Groot

If you want to look at some pictures of my car: the lpg section of my website is now ready and contains some pics. http://home.tiscali.nl/fdegroot/

Frank
Frank de Groot

Nice car, Frank. It's good to know that an LPG tank will fit, and the setup will work. I may like to go that way someday.
Joe Ullman

Great site Frank.
I noticed that the LPG venturis are further down the inlet tract than the airbox. Is this done for a reason? I was wondering if throttle response would be better if they were situated against the carb (either before or after). Obviously the original look of the V8 would be lost. Is this a possible scenario?

I'm still warey to spend the money converting as our government is reasessing the duty on LPG at the end of 2004 and I can see the price coming up sharply.
Stuart Robson

Stuart,

You are completely right. The venturis should be as close to the carbs as you can get them. Due to the odd carb setup on the GT V8 the closest you can get is on the airbox.

I can see why taxes could be a problem. Here in The Netherlands cars older than 25 years are tax exempt. So from 1998 my car has been tax exempt. Else you really have to make some miles to earn the high taxes back AND the investment in the LPG kit.

Frank
Frank de Groot

The UK froze the cut off for tax free status at 1972. I have a 1973 car (manufactured date)!!!!!!
Now that is annoying

On the airbox issue. Do you need the carbs to be connected to the same airbox to maintain balance or can they be completely separate?

Cheers

Stuart
Stuart Robson

Can be completely separate. It doesn't really matter; the mixer rings act more or less in the same way as a carburettor. Just as carbs don't need to be linked to the same airbox necessarily, the same applies to LPG mixer rings.

Frank
Frank de Groot

Frank is using a decent set up on his V8 and as such it's probably suitable for the mixers to be close to the acutal carb.
With basic vapoisers , my supplier informs me, you need to mount the mixer away (say a couple fo inches) from the carb otherwise it CAN affect the operation of the carb - remember the dashpot moves up with the vacuum and puting the mixer too close can affect it's operation.
Also the "choke" size of a mixer is smaller than that of the carb so putting it too close will give you the same result as changing 1.75" carbs to 1.5" !
This is EXACTLY how Rover restricted the power of Land Rover Stage 1 V8's although people quickly found that a simple removal of the reducer gave the same power as the Range Rover.
I haven't any experience of this but if a supplier of parts points this out then you listen ! It's worth asking the same question if you are getting quotes for an installation that they are taking this into account - unless you want reduced power (the equivilent of smaller carbs) when running of petrol.
Paul Humphries

Hi Frank,

The pics on your excellent site make it all so much clearer, I congratulate you on the neat filler location behind the number plate, a good solution.

The tank does seem to take up a lot of room.....I need to think a lot about this.

Two questions...... how do you switch from petrol to gas, is it just a solenoid switch and is it instantaneous........... how would the venturi fit in the EFi plenium chamber...... would it be in the mouth of the pipe before the throttle plate....if so would this not restrict airflow and upset the EFi ?

There is a firm near me advertising gas conversions
I think I may visit them and sound them out..

Thanks once again

Mike
Michael barnfather

Mike,

I have also made pictures of the new dashboard and there you can see how it is just an extra switch for petrol-nothing-lpg. This "nothing" might strike you as odd, but that's exactly what it is.
LPG and petrol don't really mix nicely. So if you turn of the petrol flow because you want to run on lpg, the dashpots will still contain some petrol. So first you switch to "nothing", empty the dashpots by just keep on driving the car, then when you feel they're empty you turn on the lpg.
EFI does not really have this problem: the venturi (if there still is any) will mount just before the throttle disc. I don't think it will upset the efi; as far as flow is restricted, this will work much in the same way as flow is helped by tuned heads: the efi system can cope with it. But as you do not have dashpots and the injectors are very close to the heads, there will hardly be any petrol vapor left, so switching to lpg will be almost instantenious.
Another thing is that Land- and RangeRovers are known as gasguzzlers and regularly converted to run on lpg. So there is vast knowledge of converting these Rover V8 EFI cars.

A question to ask is how exactly the lpg-fitter is thinking about creating the venturi. The first asshole just put pieces of board behind the mixer piece, thereby severly limiting flow (power down almost 50%).

Thanks for your comments. Still, I know for sure that the installation can be neater. I'll see if I can find some pictures of another car that runs on lpg. And of course revisit the site monday or tuesday, so I have some time to make some pages on the switches in the dash.

By the way: Peter Burgess knows a chap from Holland with a green four banger B GT who has done a really excellent conversion. Might talk to Peter, because he can tell you exactly how much power this chap has.

Frank
Frank de Groot

Mike,

I put some pictures of the switch on my site under LHD-RHD Conversion page. Just click on the end of the page on "results". http://home.tiscali.nl/fdegroot/results_of_the_rhd.htm should also get you there.

Frank
Frank de Groot

Here is something I read in saturdays Telegraph motoring suppliment,

Dangerous LPG conversions could rise.
(Filed: 01/03/2003)


The Trading Standards Institute (TSI) is concerned that the central London congestion charge might lead some drivers to employ dangerous and unapproved liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) conversions in order to avoid payment.

Motorists with approved alternative fuel cars that meet the requirements set out by the Energy Saving Trust's PowerShift Register are exempt from the £5 daily charge, although the vehicles are subject to a £10 annual fee.

Peter Stratton, a spokesman for TSI, said: "Our fear is that consumers will misunderstand the requirements and will turn to backstreet converters to save costs."

Sometimes, these unapproved conversions have been unreliable and dangerous. In addition, they will not be eligible for the exemption, because only PowerShift-approved conversions will be legally allowed to travel in the zone for free.

The TSI has discovered many examples of sub-standard conversions after investigating complaints by consumers. One vehicle was found to have an LPG tank too close to the ground, with inadequate straps to secure it. The pipe carrying gas underneath the vehicle was rubbing on the bodywork and ran alongside the exhaust, while the system had several "severe'' gas leaks. There were also a number of less serious faults. The trader who had carried out the conversion was prosecuted after he pleaded guilty.

Another vehicle was converted to run on LPG, but the owner was not satisfied with the way it was running. Inspectors found that the protective coating around the LPG pipe had come away in several places, the pipework did not appear to be new, the wiring was not secure and the cut-off solenoid, to restrict the flow of gas in the event of an emergency, was mounted under the rear wheel arch; it should have been in the engine bay. The garage that carried out the conversion changed hands soon afterwards and the new proprietor was not prepared to honour the warranty. The owner is trying to recover his losses from his credit card company.

Tom Fidell, director general at the LP Gas Association, said: "Not all LPG cars are eligible for the 100 per cent congestion charge discount and consumers considering a conversion should first check the PowerShift Register. Only if their car is listed in Band 4 can they convert their vehicles through an approved converter." Visit www.powershift.org.uk for more details of the Register. This site also lists all LPG refuelling sites in the UK.

Contact the Trading Standards Institute on 0870 872 9000 (email institute@ tsi.org.uk, website www.tradingstandards.gov.uk).

• Business users have been warned that it is possible to pay the congestion charge twice for the same vehicle on the same day, although system administrator Transport for London (TfL) will not alert them to the fact.

Brian Jayes, operations director for National Car Rental, which discovered the anomaly, said: "This poses a big problem for fleets and businesses with pool cars which have a number of drivers for the one vehicle. We have raised this issue with TfL, but it claims that it is not possible to pay twice and says it will not offer any refunds.

"We hope TfL looks into this as a matter of urgency. Until then, we would urge businesses to keep a detailed record of charges that have been paid and rental movement to reduce the risk of overpayment."

Drivers of leased or hired vehicles must pay the congestion charge. Hire companies will pass penalty charge notices (PCNs) on to those who do not. Rental companies are unable to register vehicles under the congestion charge ''Fleet Scheme''.

Mr Jayes adds: "This is not just a matter for our company. We know other rental companies have found the same fault in the system."




© Copyright of Telegraph Group Limited 2003
Tatty

This sounds familiar. For a comparison I could tell you the following. Cars older than 25 years are road-tax-exempt over here. So cars younger than 25 have to pay tax. For a petrol-only vehicle this could be something like 250 guilders in roadtax, for example. Dual fuel vehicles will pay 900 guilders and more in roadtax.
Checks on vehicles - besides MOT - are not really carried out regularly, so there is a number of people trying to use a non-registered "conversion". This is really dangerous and sometimes results in the same problems as you mentioned.
With EFI and a Lambda probe it should not be difficult to get approval for the powershift grant. The vaporiser will be a bit smaller, and you will get LPI (basically LPG injection instead of a venturi-system).

Frank
Frank de Groot

Though this "5-year old" rule from the powershift really sucks. Overlooked that one.

Frank
Frank de Groot

The "Practical Classics" magazine had an article written by Will Holman on a company called Classical Gas. These people install LPG in classic cars. I don't know them, but if anyone can tell me more I would be very interested. Jess Court, Classical Gas, 01303-230055 in the UK.
Frank de Groot

Not a fan of LPG and I help make the stuff.

Economics- Petrol density is 0.75 to 0.8 kg/litre roughly, LPG density is 0.53, ie you get half again as much petrol for your litre. Taking this into account and given the cost of conversion it will be a long time before you start saving money.

Engine-Have you ever seen what LPG does to valves? Not pretty.

Backfire- If you have the older jetronic EFI this is a disaster.

On the plus side the octane number is usually higher.
Peter

This thread was discussed between 20/02/2003 and 08/03/2003

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